Women Scientists Share Their Stories: Kay Behrensmeyer and Camilla Souto
Aired July 29, 2021
Laura Haynes:
Hello, everyone. My name is Laura Haynes, and I'm in my final year at the University of Florida where I study art and anthropology. I'm a Because of Her Story intern with the National Museum for Natural History, and this is the second webinar in a two-part series on women in science. So today, we're here with experts Kay Behrensmeyer and Camilla Souto, to share with us their experience as women in science. Thank you all so much for joining us on our Challenging the Face of Science program. And while we're waiting for everyone to join, you're welcome to say hello and tell us where you're joining us from in the Q&A chat. We'd love to hear, what do you love about science?
While you do that, I'd like to point out some of the features of today's program. So you can use the Q&A box to ask your questions. This button has two little speech bubbles. It's at the bottom of your screen, and you can submit a question at any time. The Smithsonian staff will be able to see it, but it won't be visible to anyone else. We'll also have a midway point to answer some questions and again in the last 10 minutes of the program. Our team of scientists and educators working behind the scenes will also be typing in answers to your questions. There is also closed captioning available. This little button is going to be next to the Q&A button at the bottom tool bar. And when you leave today's program, please take the survey. The link will pop up in the chat, and we'd love to hear from you so we can improve future programs.
Okay, so I'm starting to see some responses come in. Hi, Kathleen and April, from New York. Great, it's so good to be joining you here today. I myself am in Florida, and some of our scientists are up in D.C. Jamie is joining us from North Carolina. She says that she loves aviation and science of flight. We also have Lynn from Virginia. Hello. We have Kahlia from Falls Church, and Marie from Maryland. It's so good to be seeing you all here today. Okay, so let's go ahead and get started. Today's program is going to be about an hour, and it's part of the Smithsonian American Women's History Initiative, Because of Her Story.
So this initiative is an ambitious undertaking to research, collect, document, display and share the compelling story of women. We're going to be talking about what it's like to be a woman in science with two of our scientists from the National Museum of Natural History. I also want to acknowledge that there are so many stories we won't have enough time to cover in today's webinar, so check out some of the resources we will have posted that are inclusive of other perspectives and experiences, especially trans and gender-nonconforming individuals. So now I'm really excited to introduce to you our guest scientists for today, Kay and Camilla. Hi, thank you so much for joining us.
Kay Behrensmeyer:
Wow.
Camilla Souto:
Thanks for having me.
Laura Haynes:
So, can you both start us off by telling us a little bit about being a scientist at the Smithsonian, and your research interests?
Camilla Souto:
So I'm a Deep Time post-doctoral fellow in the Department of Paleobiology. Being a post-doc is a temporary position, so I study fossil and living marine invertebrates called echinoderms, for example sea urchins, sea cucumbers. My research includes the discovery and description of new species. I also study the evolution of marine invertebrates over the millions of years. So when I'm at the museum, I am mostly found exhibit ... in the collection, sorry, examining specimens. But in regular times, I am also found at an exhibit doing lots of outreach activities that I dearly miss.
Kay Behrensmeyer:
And I'm a research curator in the Department of Paleobiology. My job as a permanent museum employee includes doing original research on fossil bones, working with the national collections to keep them in good shape and accessible for study, and being involved in exhibits and other types of outreach to the public. My main interests are in how things become fossilized, not only bones, but all kinds of remains of organisms in the past. As you can see, I work on land as opposed to in the sea, for the most part. I've done work in all kinds of different places around the world, and not only in the past but in modern environments, such as I'm rolling up my sleeves within this picture.
Laura Haynes:
I am loving all of these photos of both of you in the field and in the museum collections. It's great to see the diversity in the work that you do as scientists. I also love your Zoom backgrounds; very fitting for the work that you both do. That brings me to the next question. Both of you participated in the Bearded Lady Project, which started this conversation on Challenging the Face of Science. So Kay, can you tell us why you brought this project to the museum? And also Camilla, why did you participate?
Kay Behrensmeyer:
Well, it's a good story. I was first involved with the Bearded Lady Project in 2017, when two of the leaders asked me to be one of their bearded ladies to help the cause of changing the face of science. I must admit I was puzzled at first. Why did we need to put on facial hair to make the point that women can be paleontologists? But then I got it. This is a powerful way to make the point about stereotypes. Many people think of paleontologists as scruffy bearded men out there digging up fossils in wild and dangerous places, and they don't really think about women doing that. But women do do that, and many are field scientists who have overcome gender biases in their careers. So when the traveling exhibit became available, the Bearded Lady Project exhibit of portraits such as you see here, I advocated for bringing it to the museum so our visitors could also see the portraits of women in the field, and share their stories as an inspiration for future women's scientists.
Camilla Souto:
My story is a little bit different, because when I learned about the project, I learned of the project for disputing gender bias in the U.S. I'm from Brazil, so as a foreigner I saw that most of the project that was very important for women, but I didn't see it as being important for women outside of the U.S. So when I was invited to join, I noticed that some peers in my graduate school, they were worried about repercussions that could come to their careers. They were young researchers. So my first thought was, when I was invited was, to support their cause.
So I learned about the gender bias in the U.S. and in paleontology, and I wanted to help. This was a very ... It was an eye-opening experience for me that led to a lot of reflection. At some point in the process, I realized that I wasn't exactly an ally and instead I was fighting my own fight. Because there is gender bias everywhere, not just in the U.S., not just in paleontology. So to answer your question, I decided to join to be an agent for change.
Laura Haynes:
Thank you both so much for sharing your perspectives, and for wearing beards. You're both so amazing, what you do, and you're at one of the coolest museums in the whole world. So in your process of getting here, I'm wondering more specifically what road blocks, if any, or challenges, have you faced that might be influenced by your gender? And ultimately, what does it mean to be a woman in science?
Kay Behrensmeyer:
Well, I'll answer the first question ... Or second question first. I've always just thought of myself as a scientist, and then a women's scientist maybe secondly to that. I was one of the few women in paleontology when I started my career, which was quite a long time ago. So it also made me realize that I should be a role model for other women who wanted to follow similar careers in science and paleontology and all kinds of sciences. So what that has led to is feeling that I should nurture and support others as best I can, and not just other women but all kinds of young people who want to follow this dream.
But when I did encounter some blockades, that was when I was in graduate school. It was the first time, really. There were faculty members who thought it was not appropriate for a woman to do field work, and I was also advised against becoming involved in a project in Kenya with paleoanthropologist Richard Leakey. So that was a reason to derail my dream, but fortunately my main advisor, Dr. Bryan Patterson, supported me and helped to make my doctoral work in Kenya a positive experience, and possible. His own mother, and this is an interesting kind of link through time ... His own mother was one of the first women to earn a law degree in England.
So he had strong women as a role model in his early life, and I think that that helped him give me a chance, and realize that I had the potential as one of the only women graduate students at the time who actually wanted to go out in the field, and go to Africa, which was a long way out in the field at the time. So I really, in retrospect, link my ability to overcome challenges to others who had done the same before me. Each time you succeed, it makes you stronger for overcoming the next road block. And fortunately though, now those road blocks are not as many or as high as they used to be several decades ago.
Laura Haynes:
Kay, you mentioned so many great things here about perseverance, about how this generational support impacted your own success. So Camilla, what does being a woman in science mean to you? What sort of challenges did you face?
Camilla Souto:
Yeah, so like Kay, I haven't thought much about being a woman or Latina in science. I never thought I couldn't do something, and I can't think of obstacles, big obstacles that stopped me, because I'm a woman. Maybe because I unknowingly navigated around those obstacles, or maybe because I pushed harder and overcame those obstacles. Again, after reflecting lately though, I noticed that there were micro-obstacles along the way. For example, there was overpraising of activities performed by my male peers. When I was an undergraduate doing research, for example, that they were apparently doing everything right and I just had to do good enough, you know? It's not a lot of pushing for women, but the males were pushed and praised. So I still don't know exactly how this may have affected my personal development. I think I need to reflect a little bit more on that, and the other obstacles.
Laura Haynes:
Yeah. Something I've been noticing is that it's not always very obvious. It's sometimes very subtle things about attention you did or did not receive in certain ways throughout academia. So it's really powerful that you're sharing that perspective with us about your experience. I also just want to remind you all that we're going to have a Q&A in a little bit, and so go ahead and write any questions that you have in the chat. And so I know I want to pursue field work just like you both, and I want to go to graduate school. One of my concerns though is that academia, it's a train that once you get on, it's kind of hard to step off the train. That can make it particularly difficult to have a family, which is something that I'm looking forward to. So Camilla, as a post-doc, you're a few steps ahead of me. Have you ever thought about this? And I don't imagine many men get asked this question, but we lose a lot of women in STEM for this reason.
Camilla Souto:
Yeah, Laura has touched on a very important point. I mentioned that I haven't thought much about obstacles regarding research ability by itself, but I have thought a lot about the personal side of being a woman in science, and starting up a family. So I've been thinking about that a lot in different points of my career, and I came to the conclusion that there's no such thing as a perfect time to start a family. So generally, you start thinking about starting a family in graduate school. In graduate school, you have to do a lot of research and write a thesis. If you're an international student that I was, in my case it's even more challenging.
So you wait for grad school to finish, and then you apply for post-docs. You get a post-doc, and you're applying for permanent positions. And then you get a permanent position, and then you have to work hard to get tenure. As you mentioned, it's a train. When you realize you are too old to have kids on your own, because our biological clock does tick. So there's no perfect time, and each person has their own story and their own desires, and have to think a lot about that. But there are success stories of moms in science, like Kay, and Briana that was here last week ... Last month. So I'm sure Kay will give some more insights of that.
Laura Haynes:
Yeah, that's so perfect. Kay, so you're a mom. You've had your two daughters in the field. Like Camilla mentioned, we talked a little bit with Briana about this in our last program, and she mentioned sometimes you need to focus on different aspects of research, or it's helpful to find community among other moms. So, how did you manage having kids and being a researcher?
Kay Behrensmeyer:
Well, I will agree with Camilla that there's no perfect time, and I wasn't really concerned about starting a family through the early part of my career. But then, you know the biological clock was ticking. Fortunately I met my future husband, whose name is Bill Keyser, and we talked about wanting children even though we were older than most people for starting a family at that time. He came along to the field with me before our daughters were born, and so he understood how important it was for me to keep doing field work. When they were little, he was a stay-at-home dad while I was in Africa or Pakistan. After they were old enough, they all came to the field with me in Kenya. Here are a couple pictures of them having fun and learning in the field. Bill is kind of hidden back there in the vehicle, in the driver's seat a lot of the time, and just essential to everything that we were able to do.
It's definitely a challenge to manage, and depends on the help and good will of many, many people. But was so worth it, not only for their experiences and connections with another culture here in Kenya, and all the people and the landscape, but our shared experiences as a family. So I feel really fortunate that I was able to do this, and now they're grown up and they remember. I hope that they will get back to Kenya again.
Laura Haynes:
So I'm seeing some of the same themes reflected in what you're saying about the idea of community, and how important that is in supporting your work, and being able to have a family and continue being in the field. These are some really powerful images that you have here, and they're so much fun just to see little kids out in the field. That's so much fun. I just want to say, it's really also powerful to hear about your experience as a parent, because most of the time we think about women as being the primary caregiver. But it's an important conversation that applies to everyone, not just women, okay? Men are dads too, and fortunately I seem to be hearing a lot that science is becoming more inclusive. We are having this conversation so that eventually it's easier for everyone to have a family and also do science, and not have to compromise so much in what your role is.
And now, we have a little bit of time for our experts to answer some questions from the audience. So go ahead, type your questions into the Q&A chat if you haven't already, and we'll be answering those. Okay, so forgive me if I mispronounce the name. Kayla asks, "What qualities or abilities do you value in women or people in a STEM career?"
Kay Behrensmeyer:
Well, I guess I could take that to begin with. Women need to be willing to take charge of situations and conversations. Of course, you have to have the background, the knowledge and the drive. But I've found for myself, persistence and finding ways to do things, creative ways to get around road blocks and problems, but also just to keep my eyes on the prize, of the ability to become a scientist, to make discoveries, to find out so many things about the way the world works. So it's a balance of perseverance and hope, and dreaming about what you can become as you go into this. And of course, it's not an easy road all the time but people will help you. There are many, many potential mentors and inspiring people along the way that you can ... That can help you overcome those obstacles and do what you want to do. So, those are some of the qualities that I think are really important.
Camilla Souto:
I'll add two things to that, curiosity and resiliency. I think to be a scientist, you need to be curious and ideally you're passionate about what you do. Just that is going to bring a lot of things to you. It's going to bring a lot of strength to power through, and resiliency as well.
Laura Haynes:
I'm so glad the audience is asking such amazing questions, because I know your answers are definitely helping me. We have a really great question here, too. April asks, her daughter is 12 and she wants to know where to start. She's dedicated to her studies of the planet, especially the dinosaurs, and super strong in her science, so biology, earth science, ecology. Should she read specific books, textbooks? What could they add to their home school programming?
Camilla Souto:
Can I start, Kay, or ...?
Kay Behrensmeyer:
Yeah, you should go this.
Camilla Souto:
I would recommend reading is great, and watching those nature series and there are great books out there. But going out to nature, I think you're going to learn a lot about natural history and about animal behavior that's invaluable and that's going to carry throughout your whole life.
Kay Behrensmeyer:
And I think your daughter should realize there is so much more to find out. There are so many things that are not known, and reading, and also as Camilla said, looking at some of these wonderful programs online. There are virtual museum tours. We have one for our Natural History Museum, if you can't actually come here. Just thinking about the questions, finding out about the questions that are not answered, that are good questions about Earth history, about dinosaurs, about evolution, about all these things that fossils and paleontology relate to, but also biology in general, ecology, anthropology.
It's an amazing array of potential careers, so it'll be important for her to find out which ones are sort of the most interest to her. And then if it's geology, you need to have quite a lot of physical sciences and geochemistry. If it's anthropology, that's another set of requirements. So it's a good time to start planning for all that, but I agree, just wide reading is a tremendous asset at this stage of your life.
Laura Haynes:
I just want to add that it's pretty amazing she already has an interest in sciences, because I sort of decided to do the science thing in college. It's only within the past few years that I really have honed in on liking specific things, mostly anthropology and ecology. It's just amazing to be discovering these things, and know that you'll change your mind a thousand times, and that's okay. I also want to add that we have incredible resources on the Natural History Museum website about science and the scientists themselves, so you can check out the Science How programs, and their school programs. I've looked through a lot of the ones that are meant for kids, and they are so much fun. I absolutely love watching them, even about subjects that I don't study in college. That's why it's so much fun to have this resource. And so our next question, this one is directed towards Kay. So, have your children expressed thoughts and feelings about their experiences growing up in such a unique situation?
Kay Behrensmeyer:
Oh, great question and I wish they were here to answer that themselves. But they found a lot of new perspectives in just hanging out with the children in Kenya that they were able to meet. The people in Kenya are just in general wonderfully welcoming to children, and so I think that made a big impression. My daughter Christina wrote quite an interesting essay later when she was in middle school, or maybe it was even elementary school, about being white in a culture where there were all these dark-skinned children. That then has led to a lot of tolerance I think in her life, of people of all races.
And so I think also they were very interested in the science ... I mean, in sort of the work that we were doing. Not that either of them became scientists, but it helped them kind of expand their horizons in understanding what different kinds of adults do, and maybe they wanted to do something different from their mother. So my older daughter is a psychologist and a therapist who works with autistic children. My younger daughter is a musician.
Laura Haynes:
That's pretty amazing to hear about that experience, just growing up in the field and how that really shapes you. So our next question is directed towards either of you. What was one of your most memorable research projects that shaped who you are as a scientist and leader in the field of paleontology? Thank you.
Camilla Souto:
I'll pass that to Kay, because I'm early career and I don't have anything memorable yet. I'm just happy to be here.
Laura Haynes:
I have a hard time believing that.
Kay Behrensmeyer:
Yeah, why don't you try, Camilla?
Camilla Souto:
Well, I think I'm proud of having described seven new species, which nowadays very few people describe new species. I'm happy to have done that as an early career researcher.
Laura Haynes:
Yeah.
Kay Behrensmeyer:
I think that's remarkable, actually. I haven't described any new species, and that is sort of a different track than many vertebrate paleontologists who are still doing wonderful work out there. But my accomplishments are more in trying to see the bigger picture of how different animals and plants fit together in ancient ecosystems. That involves a lot of teamwork, so I've been very happy and proud to be able to put together experts around problems, and how did ecosystems evolve through time? Rather than a particular discovery, I think, and there are many sort of advances that have come out of my work. But I think one of my proudest things is to have just helped other people form these teams that can address the bigger problems that I couldn't do on my own.
Laura Haynes:
Well, thank you both so much for sharing. We didn't get to any of the audience questions at this point. We're going to try and answer those towards the end of the program, because we're about at our halfway point. So we're going to go back to prepared questions, and this is very relevant to some things we were just discussing about field work. And so you both have been pretty much all over the world, at least to me. I'm kind of a small-town girl. I just live in Florida. I know though that the issue of safety in the field is a really big conversation topic happening right now. So, can you tell us a little bit about your perspective on field work and the other types of experiences that you've had?
Camilla Souto:
Yeah, I will start that, Kay. Most of my field work was done as an undergraduate, and the main challenge that I had was basically safety. So I do research in tide pools mostly when I was an undergrad, and the best time to find marine animals in tide pools is when the tide is low. That may happen at 5:00 a.m., 6:00 a.m., when it's still really dark out, so those are the times that I had to go to the field. My main collaborator was also and has been a woman, so most of the times it was just the two of us in the field. We've never had any issue, but once we had a scary moment when we were far into the water in a very isolated place.
We noticed a man walking towards us with a huge knife. He asked and asked what we were doing, and we said we were studying sea urchins. So he grabbed a sea urchin from the rock, cracked it open and gave it to us to try ... Of course, we did try. No harm was done at the end of the day, and he was just ... I think he was a fisherman who was being curious, and that was actually an educational moment for us. But he was a man, and it was very frightening. Since then, we never went back to the field alone. We would always, whenever we were going, I would bring a male friend along to the field with us. But apart from that, it's always been great.
Laura Haynes:
Well, that's certainly scary. Kay, what have your experiences been like?
Kay Behrensmeyer:
Well, where I've worked there are a lot of potential dangers, from poisonous snakes, to lions, to unsafe vehicles, flash floods, tribal conflicts that have nothing to do with the researchers, but we could get in the way. Of course, injury and illness, long distances from medical help. But I've been parts of teams with very responsible and experienced people, and so I've been able to trust them to keep us safe, provide protection and good advice. I've never been too worried about the risks, in part because of that and I guess also being lucky that nothing bad has happened.
So when I became a project leader myself, then I did the same for my team members, making sure they understood what was safe and what was not, briefing them and telling them what we would do, contingencies if something did happen. Most of the dangers are really low probability, and they need to be taken seriously but you can't let them keep you from doing your research. With wise precautions and good sense, you can succeed. I haven't had an experience like Camilla's, with being approached by an unknown man with a knife, fortunately. But the lions were always lurking, kind of behind the tents in some places, and so we had to be pretty careful, especially at night. They didn't know that they could, with a swipe of a paw, get through the tent canvas, which is fortunate.
Laura Haynes:
Yeah. Yeah, that is pretty fortunate. And part of the reason why I'm so happy we're discussing this today is because hopefully this will open the door for other people in our audience, or anyone who they share this with, to critically think about the types of environments they're going to be in. So for instance, I'm planning on going halfway across the world to study primates in a remote rainforest location. That's my dream, and it really shouldn't feel awkward though to be asking questions about my safety whenever I'm talking to other graduate students, potential supervisors. And so now I'm wondering, what seems to be the next step for science? What needs to change to make field work more welcoming to women?
Kay Behrensmeyer:
Well, I can start by saying that I think more women taking a lead and organizing field teams would be really helpful. It's happening, but it's been kind of slow. If women are in charge, then they can make more room for other women to learn how to do it, and all this can just amplify through time. And then when women learn the field science, and they learn and they're in charge of keeping people safe, then that will make it more welcoming I think for all the people on the team. Everyone can be more comfortable.
But there are many projects also led by men that are open to women, and there are more guidelines, more protocols, more codes of conduct now that will help everybody understand where the boundaries are, what the personal responsibilities are. And so I think awareness has increased a lot, and of course it needs to increase more, especially in other countries that may not be aware of some of these things as much as we are here. So the protocols in the case of potential gender issues or harassment have to be very clear, and they need to be discussed before anyone actually goes out in the field. Because you're spending a lot of time with folks, and yeah, you just need to know before you get there what's expected.
Camilla Souto:
Yeah, I agree with Kay that more women need to be in charge of organizing field work, because women generally tend to be more accommodating and think more about everybody's needs. But I also think that such responsibilities cannot be solely put in and on women's shoulder. I think men has to be thoughtful about those things, too. In addition, like Kay's sexual harassment, they must be dealt with rigor and not just swept under the rug, that as it happens too often. And unfortunately, not all countries have policies for reporting misconduct, or have safety protocols. Those need to be ... The word needs to be spread out everywhere, and there has to be discussions all over the place, so everything is improved.
Laura Haynes:
Yes, I couldn't agree more with both of you. It's great hearing from your perspective, because I'm at that step where I haven't gone there yet. I haven't been in the field. I'm just starting this conversation, so it's amazing to hear both of you speak on this. We also have someone from the audience, Jama I believe, has a comment saying that this conversation is remarkable and it's empowering to know that we're having these conversations. We also have a follow-up question about field work that I want to ask since it's relevant right now. Kathleen says, "Do either of you currently have field projects on hold from the pandemic, and how are you able to coordinate with folks in-country to preserve areas that you're waiting to return to work at?"
Kay Behrensmeyer:
That's a great question, and the answer is yes, there is so much on hold. I usually go to Kenya every summer, and I've missed two now. And yet, I am able to support a Kenyan researcher who is right now out in the field doing work, studying modern bones and how they relate to the ecology in Tsavo Park in Kenya. At least, I hope she's out there. And so I know my colleagues have been able to kind of empower their field crews that we've worked with for so many years, to just go and check on the fossils that are eroding out, and make sure that everything is okay and if there are things needing collecting, that they can be collected. That all speaks to the really important part of these field teams in other countries, that is to have collaborators who are there, who can still carry on the work. So even though we can't be there, the research to some extent is going on. We've found ways to make that happen. But I'm really eager to get back to the field as soon as I can, and I'm working on that right now.
Camilla Souto:
I don't have any. I'm not waiting on something to go to the field. But I did have some trips to museums worldwide to examine specimens, and those are on hold right now.
Laura Haynes:
Yeah, just to chime in a bit, I was supposed to go to Madagascar this summer, the past summer. Fortunately though, even though I wasn't able to do that, I'm here today with you all and ultimately I think everything's worked out really well. So our next question is that something a lot of women struggle with in STEM, especially I have this conversation a lot with my peers, is that our voices often go unheard at least in classroom settings, labs, et cetera, and they experience microaggressions. I know that these things have happened to me. Both of you have been in science a lot longer than I have, so what is your advice on how to address this?
Kay Behrensmeyer:
Well, that's an interesting word that I've become more familiar with as a name for something that I did experience a lot of. Through my career, I've had to learn how to be not ignored or dismissed in group discussions that are usually dominated by men. That is still fairly typical in mixed-gender situations. Women generally are raised to be less assertive, and I certainly was. Some men may not even realize that they are excluding women by talking so much and not leaving room for others to speak. So I have developed some strategies. I don't like to just interrupt, although sometimes I do that.
But I found that raising my hand, and that's kind of a visual interruption that eventually everyone realizes that you want to say something. That usually works, so I get to put in my two cents or three cents, whatever, into the conversation, and then help to guide whatever the decisions are evolving in it. That, I've found that it works. Just, you have to be kind of creative in making sure that your voice is heard, but don't give up. Don't take no for an answer, or being ignored for an answer. Just find ways to get your ideas in there.
Camilla Souto:
I appreciate this tip from Kay, because I have been numerous times in that situation. I'm still learning. It's especially challenge when there is an asymmetric power structure. For example, confidence is needed ... A lot of confidence to raise our hand and interrupt a discussion among renowned researchers, for example, especially if they are all males. There's a lot at stake for young professionals, post-docs, graduate students. In my case, I also have to navigate interacting in a different culture, in a different language. It's hard to speak as a foreigner. It's even harder as a foreign woman.
I remember my first couple of months at the Smithsonian when I started my post-doc. We have these journal discussions in our department, and it's every week. It was very uncomfortable when I found myself in a room just with men in the discussions. It was such a relief when Kay walked into the room, and everything felt much lighter and welcoming. I won't say that that made me speak more, but it definitely felt much better.
Laura Haynes:
Yeah, I think everything is better with Kay.
Kay Behrensmeyer:
Oh, that's so kind. Well you know, it is changing now that with more women scientists sitting around the table, talking at meetings, all of that, it's definitely getting easier to be heard. So we have a way to go, but I think the future looks really bright for that.
Camilla Souto:
If I can say something real quick. It's also like now I see how important that is. When there is a discussion, instead of avoiding a meeting, I like to go just to support other women to go to that meeting as well.
Kay Behrensmeyer:
So true.
Laura Haynes:
That is such a beautiful thought. I am so happy that we're talking about this with everyone here online, and learning about really how to advocate for yourself and also how to advocate for other people. That is a perfect segue into my next line of questioning, is that I've been given a lot of advice that some of the most ... Or, one of the most important things that you can do is build a strong relationship with a mentor. So Camilla, can you actually start us off by sharing with us your experience with mentors and how they've affected where you are now?
Camilla Souto:
Yeah, my experience with mentors have been great, for the most part. Not always, but often. I've had many mentors, both men, women, and mentors, they come in different flavors. They can be game-changing to one's career. It's never too early to seek out mentors, never too late. In this picture, I was an undergraduate just starting in my career as a researcher. All my field experiences were organized by a woman. In this case, the one in the middle was my mentor at the time, a research mentor, so she is an expert in brittle stars and that was the group that I was working at the moment. So she went there specifically to teach us how to look for them, yeah, in the reefs.
Today here, another flavor of mentor is the mentorship moment we just had from Kay, who had just given us some tips on how to navigate male-dominated discussions. So I think it's very important to seek out a mentor for different things, and also to be open for all kind of experiences there are around us in our lives, that we may miss if we're not paying attention. So yeah, fortunately I've only had happy moments ... I mean, mostly happy moments with that.
Laura Haynes:
That's so good to hear, and really is helpful for me as I'm learning how to be building these connections with other people, and networking, and finding the mentors for different aspects of things that I need. It's not just research. We also have another photo with Kay, and this one is Kay and one of her mentors from back in 1972, so this is quite an amazing photo. Kay, can you tell us a little bit about your experience being mentored by lots of people throughout your career, and how this has impacted how you try to be a role model for others?
Kay Behrensmeyer:
Thanks, Laura. Well, this brings back a lot of memories, of course. I didn't actually go looking for a mentor. It just kind of happened that Bryan Patterson was my advisor. He took me on as a graduate student. But in this photo, which I really like ... It was sent to me recently by one of my long-time colleagues and friends. It shows how archaeologists ... He was a professor at Berkeley at the time, Glynn Isaac, treated me as an equal in discussing problems in the field. I mean, you can see from the body language and what we're doing that he was really listening to this young graduate student at the time, trying to interpret what was going on at this archaeological site. I was looking at the sediments, and so he was asking questions.
This was the kind of wonderful, kind of give-and-take interaction that made him just a super mentor for me and for a lot of other graduate students at the time as well. He treated everyone so fairly, and he always had time to discuss things. He was interested in the science, not in the politics, not in all of the other things that can get in the way, just in finding out what was going on with the archaeology and the geology and the paleontology. So he set a wonderful role model for all of us and for me. I try to be equally available. I haven't been able to do much training in the field lately, but through email, through media, helping early career, especially women colleagues with research papers and just research analysis, figures, how to put hypotheses into visual kind of frameworks.
It also just always reminds me, looking at this picture, how many kind and generous people have helped me along the way. I just want to do the same, and pass it on. The community spirit of paleontology and a lot of sciences, in the best sense that they can be, is just a wonderful reason to become a scientist. Because that community goes with you potentially all the way through your life.
Laura Haynes:
And we have a perfect question to follow up some of these things that you both have been saying about mentorship. Andre from the audience asks, "What in your opinion should male scientists know about being a woman scientist? How would we most effectively help women scientists?"
Kay Behrensmeyer:
That's a good question. I mean just everyone, whatever gender they identify with, I mean Glynn Isaac set the model for me. If you treat everyone equally, you're respectful of everyone's opinion, and of course you can interact and be constructively critical and do all the things that are necessary in science. But I don't think men should try to give women necessarily more space, just equal space, so that everybody like in a team, a research team, feels that they are on the same ground and they're all pursuing whatever question or problem is at hand equally.
Camilla Souto:
Yeah, I think it's important to listen what women are saying, and try to put yourself on women's shoes. Just deconstruct everything you've learned just from the male perspective, and try to be more understanding of differences. I think it's very important to support women, be a cheerleader, and actually take action in promoting women in science.
Kay Behrensmeyer:
That's actually a really good additional point. Cheerleading, or if someone is not paying attention to a woman saying, "Yeah, well, listen to what she has to say. That's a really good idea." Not only that, value the different perspectives that women bring to science. Because it's supposed to be completely objective, but it isn't really. You know, people come from different backgrounds, gender and other kind of ... Racial, whatever, ethnic ... And they bring different views and different perspectives that only can make the science stronger in the end. Because different ways to solve problems are the way you make progress.
Laura Haynes:
And I think the example that Camilla used earlier about a fisherman approaching her with a large knife, just how women might perceive certain things, or how they might think about certain things that could be scary or intimidating, or just different aspects like that. I also want to ask then, do you think language is important? For instance, like during this conversation we're talking a lot about being women, being women in science. Is it important to identify scientists as scientists, without gender or demographic qualifiers?
Camilla Souto:
Certainly, we're not women scientists. We are scientists.
Laura Haynes:
Yeah, I have to agree.
Kay Behrensmeyer:
But we do have, as this is the discussion, there are differences. We're scientists, but we're different kinds of scientists, so all of those can enrich STEM and science going forward.
Laura Haynes:
Yes, thank you both so much for sharing your expertise with us. It looks like you're doing some really amazing work. You have some fantastic perspectives on what's happening in science, hopefully what will continue to happen in science. I'm very optimistic about the future. And now we have about nine minutes left to answer some questions from the audience that didn't get answered during the midpoint Q&A, so we'll try to get to as many as we can. You can add more questions also by typing in the Q&A chat. So for our next question, for either Kay or Camilla, if you could forge your career path all over again, would you do anything differently specifically from the perspective of being a woman in science?
Kay Behrensmeyer:
Hmm, wow. I think not, because I also feel that I had wonderful men supporting me through the early years. I don't know what it would have been like to have women mentors early on, so perhaps I would have ended up doing the same thing, or I might have ended up doing different things. But the men were the ones who had kind of the access to the field work, and I wanted to do field work. So if I'd become mentored by a woman scientist at that time, I likely would have ended up in a laboratory. So I hadn't really thought about that before, but I mean and maybe I would have been happy enough in the laboratory. But I really like being outdoors, and solving puzzles outdoors, so the field work was pretty important to my whole career.
Laura Haynes:
That's interesting. I didn't know that. Camilla, do you have an answer?
Camilla Souto:
Yes, so my immediate answer was no, I wouldn't change anything. But thinking retrospectively, I would change one thing that women tends to take on a lot, which is service loads. I've taken on service activities since I was an undergraduate, so I organized conferences. I did all sort of stuff that took me away from my research. I could have a bigger CV in terms of research, and smaller for the other areas. But instead, I was doing all of that so I think I would reduce that, because it's not very much appreciated, unfortunately. Women tends to do more of that.
Laura Haynes:
Yes, that actually brings up a very important topic that women take on a lot of unpaid or unrecognized labor. So that is something that I'm working through like with, "What am I really responsible for? Do I really need to be doing extra stuff? Can't I just be good enough doing science? Why do I have to add onto it to prove that I'm worthy of being here?" So I couldn't agree more with that. And Kay, to reflect on your point, what's interesting is I've almost only had women mentors, and for my field work, my mentor is a woman. And so it's very exciting for me to get to connect to a lot of different people who perhaps weren't typically in science whenever you started as an undergrad. So I think that's an important point as well.
Kay Behrensmeyer:
It shows progress, doesn't it? A lot. That's hopeful.
Laura Haynes:
And we have a question from Molly. "Have you met fellow women-identifying colleagues and students who got started in academia late because they started a family first? Are there different ways that we late bloomers can be supported in science careers by established and successful women?"
Kay Behrensmeyer:
One of my role models was a woman paleontologist who had four children before she got her Ph.D. She eventually got it in the study of fossil fish, and she worked in Africa with her husband, who was a geologist. When I met her, she already had children who were getting into their teens. I just thought, "If she can do it, you know, then I can, too." But I didn't have the opportunity to have children early. I didn't make that choice, but she did, so that's one of my examples.
She was very determined and very, very capable, too. And then she ended up becoming a professor at the University of Colorado Boulder, and mentoring and nurturing a lot of other scientists, including many women. So I'd have to think about other examples, but yes, it is possible to take that route. I know a number of women now who are working on Ph.D.s that also have children to take care of. And so if you have the drive and the luck and the support system, then there shouldn't be anything standing in your way.
Laura Haynes:
Camilla, would you like to add to that?
Camilla Souto:
I agree with Kay. I don't know anybody personally, and I was thinking here, I would love to have met that person because it would be a role model for me, and maybe all those thoughts that I've had about starting a family wouldn't be so conflicting my head. But definitely, I had peers in graduate school that were having kids and they are ... It didn't affect their careers. But they also had very supporting partners. I think that's very important, and supervisors.
Laura Haynes:
Something I'm learning a lot about is that I ... Well, I personally feel rushed all the time like, "Oh my gosh. Okay, I can't take a gap year. I have to go on to grad school. After I get my master's, I'm going to start my Ph.D. That's another, what, six years? And then after that, I need to find a post-doc position, and then after that ..." And so all of these plans, it feels like are ... I feel very rushed to get everything done. But really, I've been meeting a lot of people recently who decide they're in their 40s. They decide to pick up something different, start a new career, and they're wildly successful at it. So it just shows that you can change your mind, and then you can make decisions, and nothing is set in stone, so I really like that.
Camilla Souto:
You can always slow down the train.
Laura Haynes:
Yes. And I just want to leave on a really hopeful note, so if you had to use one word to describe the future of women in science, what would it be?
Camilla Souto:
Oh, that's a hard one.
Kay Behrensmeyer:
Optimistic. Optimistic, very. Yes, it's a great time for science, and having more and more women and lots of other kinds of people that have different viewpoints. There's so much going on. It's just a great time to be in STEM, and sharing in the discoveries that will continue.
Camilla Souto:
Following on Kay's optimistic tone, my word is successful.
Laura Haynes:
I like that, optimistic and successful. I want to thank you both so much for your time today, and thank you to everyone watching for joining us. We really appreciated all of your amazing questions, and be sure to check out some of the resources we have posted on our page. You can take a screen shot or a picture of this slide, and we're also going to be posting these in the chat. Please take the poll as well. We also have a link to a survey that should pop up. It takes a few minutes, and it's really impactful for our future programming. So, thank you all.
Kay Behrensmeyer:
Thank you, Laura.
Camilla Souto:
Thank you, everybody.
