Women Scientists Share Their Stories: Amanda Lawrence and Briana Pobiner
Aired July 8, 2021
Laura Haynes:
Hello, everyone. My name is Laura, and I'm in my final year at the University of Florida where I study art and anthropology. Currently, I'm interning with the Because of Her Story program at the National Museum for Natural History. This is the first webinar in a two-part series on women in science. So today, we're here with experts Amanda Lawrence and Briana Pobiner to share with us their experience as women in the field of science. So thank you all so much for joining us on our Challenging the Face of Science program.
And while we're waiting for everyone to join, you're welcome to say hello and tell us where you're joining us from in the Q&A chat. And we'd love to hear, what do you love about science? And while you do that, I'm just going to point out some of the features of today's program.
You can use the Q&A box to ask any of your questions. The button is at the bottom of your screen with two little speech bubbles. You can submit a question at any time, and they're only going to be visible to Smithsonian staff. At the midway point in the program we're going to be able to answer some of your questions, and then again in the last 10 minutes of the program. Our team of scientists and educators are working behind the scenes and they'll be answering questions in the Q&A space as well. Also, I just wanted to let you know there is closed captioning available. The closed captioning button is also on that bottom toolbar right next to the Q&A button. Okay. And when you leave today's program, a survey link will pop up in your browser. Please take it. We'd love to hear from you so that we can improve future programs based off your feedback.
And I already see that we have a lot of responses popping up in the Q&A chat. So someone from California says that they love passing on the wonder of science to their students and seeing their eyes light up. And we also have people from Virginia. Oh my gosh. Okay, we have a summer school class here. That's so cool. These are some fantastic responses. I'm glad to see that people from all over are attending today.
Okay, so let's get started. Today's program is going to last about an hour, and it's part of the Smithsonian American Women's History Initiative, Because of Her Story. This initiative is an ambitious undertaking to research, collect, document, display, and share the compelling story of women. And we're going to be talking about what it's like to be a woman in science with two of our scientists from the National Museum of Natural History.
I also want to acknowledge that there are so many stories we're not going to have enough time to cover today, so check out some of the resources we have posted on the website and that we'll be posting at the end of the webinar that are inclusive of many other perspectives and experiences, including trans and gender nonconforming individuals. Also, we have some amazing women behind the scenes who will be responding to our Q&A questions. So without further ado, I'd love to welcome Ella Beaudoin, a project manager with research expertise in archaeology, and Kay Behrensmeyer, a research geologist and curator of vertebrate paleontology. So these are behind-the-scenes scientists who will be answering your questions in the chat.
And now, I'm also really excited to introduce our guest scientists for today, museum technician Amanda Lawrence and paleoanthropologist Dr. Briana Pobiner. Amanda, Briana, hi. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Briana Pobiner:
Hi, Laura. Thanks for having us.
Amanda Lawrence:
Hi. Thanks for having me.
Laura Haynes:
So I bet a lot of our viewers are interested in learning more about what it means to work at the Smithsonian. Amanda, you're a museum technician in the Department of Anthropology. Can you start us off by telling us a little bit about your job and what a museum technician is?
Amanda Lawrence:
Sure. So yes, my title is museum technician. What that really means is that I work behind the scenes taking care of the collections, the objects that are housed at our institution. So this slide right here will show you one of our big ... I like to call it almost like a warehouse that we have, that's not in our downtown location, it's actually off-site, where we house a lot of our objects. So most of the time I am working in this building helping people, helping visitors during tours, or maintaining the objects.
Laura Haynes:
And Briana, can you tell us what a paleoanthropologist is and what you do?
Briana Pobiner:
Sure. So a paleoanthropologist basically studies some aspect of human evolution. And my particular interest in human evolution is Stone Age diets and when meat eating and generally eating animal resources became more important in our evolutionary history. I do that by studying mostly fossils but also sometimes modern animal bones. You can see the picture on the right here is a fossil bone. And if you look on that part that has a red circle, you see these lines on there. So those are actually marks made by ancient stone knives that early humans used to butcher that animal, and that fossil is from part of a million-and-a-half-year-old leg bone from an antelope that was found at a site in Northern Kenya called Koobi Fora. So I use magnifying glasses and other kind of technology, usually low technology, to look at the surfaces of fossils, figure out who ate them, chewed on them, butchered them, and that gives me a little bit of a sense of who ate what in the past.
Laura Haynes:
Okay, so you both do some really cool things. This program, it's all about women in science and your experiences, the people you've met who have had a significant impact on your journey, the skills that you've used to be successful, and the challenges that you've overcome. Which brings me to ask the big question of today's program, what is it like to be a woman in science?
Briana Pobiner:
All right, so I'll start off answering that. So one thing I'm still keenly aware of is that women in science are still generally still in the minority. I think a lot from my own perspective about being hopefully at some point a leader for women in science, having interns and other people that I'm mentoring, but also continuing to look to those above me for mentorship.
Another thing that I think about, building communities of women in science is something that I think about. And another thing from my own personal experience that I often think about is work-life balance and having a family. And there are, I think, many different ways that I try to do that and my colleagues try to do that. But I think inherent in being a woman in science for many people is about that kind of work-life balance and family and having kids.
Amanda Lawrence:
And I will say that for my field of collections management, it's actually pretty a woman-dominated field. So I have a lot of women colleagues and a lot of mentors that are women. So I feel a lot of the time, at least in my day-to-day, I don't really think about being a woman in science. I probably think more about being a Black woman in science and how adding to representation within the field and different ways of working within that space is probably something that I think about more than being more specific within the women in science.
Laura Haynes:
Okay. Thank you both so much for sharing your personal perspectives on what it is to be a woman in science. And I'm wondering, given everything that you've already said, what does an average day look like for each of you?
Briana Pobiner:
Well, I'm happy to start and I always like to say, what is an average day? I've never had one. So I do a variety of different things just in the research part of my job, and I have an unusual role at the museum where I also do a lot of education and outreach. But from a research perspective, I could be doing what you see on the left photo, where I'm taking photographs and studying fossils in the museum collection. And those are also fossils at the National Museum of Kenya in Nairobi.
I might be doing field work, so the middle photo is of me at my long-term field site, which is a wildlife conservancy in Kenya called Ol Pejeta Conservancy, where I'm doing a study of the modern bones on the landscape to get a sense of, does the bone community match the living community? What does the predator chewing look like in a modern bone community? And can I use that as a model for what predator chewing damage might look like in the past?
The picture of me on the right is actually in my office, where I am not consistently these days because of Covid, but oftentimes also being a scientist involves things like writing scientific papers, analyzing data, attending meetings. And I also teach at George Washington University in the Anthropology Department. So one of the things I like best about my job is that there really is no such thing as a typical day, and I find that a lot of fun.
Laura Haynes:
And Amanda, what does an average day look like for you?
Amanda Lawrence:
I completely agree with Briana. There is no average day or a typical day, especially in the collections management realm, it just kind of depends. So I could be in the collections doing organization and cataloging, I could be leading tours, or I could be helping researchers find things within the collection. That picture on the right, the far right, was my first day that I got to go back into the museum after a whole year of not being in. And so I was there just cleaning and getting more organized of, where did I leave off a year ago? So I agree, this is why I love collections management is that I just have so many different tasks and so many different things that I can do that there's no one typical day.
Laura Haynes:
Wow, okay. I really had no idea what being a museum technician was until you explained a little bit more and I saw those photos. So it's really amazing. You both do so many varied things. I want to dig a little deeper into the experiences and skills that have helped you find this success. And I know the audience must be wondering as well, what are some of your inspirations? How did you get into science?
Amanda Lawrence:
Well, I've always loved earth sciences. I always loved digging around in the dirt. I had a rock collection growing up. So I knew that I wanted to do something that was related to earth sciences. My undergraduate degree is in geobiology. I was going to be a paleontologist. And for one of my classes, we ended up going to a museum. And when I was there, I realized I had never been behind the scenes at a museum before. I didn't know it existed, didn't know there was all these professionals back there doing things, taking care of objects. I didn't know it was something that I could do. So I kind of switched course and decided to go to Texas Tech University to get my master's in museum science, where I learned about techniques and taking care of objects. And from there, I've been very fortunate to combine my love for museums with my love for natural history and work at a natural history museum.
Laura Haynes:
I'm wondering, since you have this photo up here, what's happening in this image? It's really cool.
Amanda Lawrence:
Yes. Oh, thank you. So this is me taking ... I'm pointing at this ash layer, which is the K-T boundary, which is the boundary that marks the extinction of the dinosaurs. So it was just kind of like a fun ... This is me back in undergrad, and I was very excited to be able to see this in person. Which it actually occurs all over the world, this just happens to be in Denver.
Laura Haynes:
Okay, that was really awesome to hear about. Thank you for sharing that. I'm also wondering, Briana, how did you get into science too?
Briana Pobiner:
Sure. So I had a little bit of a different path than Amanda. I would not say that I was very into science as a kid. I loved the natural world, but I always thought that I would maybe end up being a writer. I loved reading and poetry. I went to undergrad at Bryn Mawr College in Pennsylvania, and when I got to college, my advisor, who was a dean but had been an anthropology professor, when I was trying to find a fourth class for my first semester, she said, "Well, why don't you try anthropology?" And I said, "What's that?" I'd never heard of it.
So I took a chance and I took an introduction to physical anthropology and archaeology class and I loved it. For me, although I'd had really good science teachers all through middle school and high school, it was the first time that I had learned about science in a way that was much more about science is about unanswered questions, it's about solving mysteries, it's about the things we still don't know. A lot of my high school science was very much about, you do an experiment, you get an answer. If you don't get the right answer, you did something wrong. So my first anthropology class was very much a different way of thinking about it and asking questions about science, and I loved it.
And then the summer after my junior year, I went on a paleoanthropology field school in South Africa. It was the first time I'd gotten a chance to ... I actually did field work after my freshman year of college. It was paleontology field work, actually, much like Amanda, that was sort of my first experience. But getting to do paleoanthropological field work and excavating, I was completely hooked. And so that was really the final push over the edge of the, I don't know, paleoanthropology cliff.
And so the photos that you see here, on the left hand side, it is a picture of me from in between undergrad and grad school. I took a little bit of time off. I knew I wanted to go to graduate school, and I have a Ph.D. in anthropology, but I wanted to get more practical experience. And so I spent every summer from actually before graduate school all the way through teaching on a summer study abroad undergraduate field school in Kenya. And so that's me wielding one kind of archeological field tool, a pickax. And then on the right, also is actually a photo from graduate school. That's me and a few excavators from a site that I worked at in Indonesia with a very sweaty back. It was a very hot and humid. But that was a fun experience and I loved being outside and I loved discovering things. To me, the moment when I pull a fossil out of the ground and I think, "Nobody has seen this since it was buried a million and a half years ago," it's very exciting.
Laura Haynes:
Yes, it sounds like it. I have yet to go on a field school adventure. I'm really looking forward to it. But I just want to say, I had a really similar experience. My freshman year, I took biological anthropology, did not expect it to go somewhere, but here I am. So I also wanted to comment on something that you mentioned, which is that advisors, mentors, they're really important in becoming successful. So I'm wondering if both of you can share with us a little bit about your experiences with mentors, how they've affected where you are now, and any other comments on that.
Briana Pobiner:
Yeah, I'm happy to start with mentors. I've had formal mentors in my career, like my undergraduate advisor, my Ph.D. advisor, but I've also really sought out a lot of informal mentors. The photo that I showed of the excavation that I was on in Indonesia, I went on that excavation, and one of the people running it was an informal mentor of mine who was a graduate school professor of mine. And I've particularly reached out, I would say, to informal mentors. I seek out women mentors, not exclusively, but I have found that ... Particularly when I was thinking about starting a family, I was really interested in finding out other women who do field work, how do they possibly do that while they're also thinking about starting a family? Or when I was even applying to graduate school, reaching out to other graduate student mentors or faculty mentors to just ask questions that are specific to the situation that I'm thinking about at that time.
And I still very much seek out mentors. Sometimes mentors can be students, even if you're a professor, or they can be somebody in a different field than you. And I have found most people that I have approached about mentoring me in some way to be really receptive. So it's been great. I guess the only other thing I would add is that I've had the opportunity, there are some formal mentoring networks in my field. So for me, the Biological Anthropology Women's Mentoring Network has been a really great source of support, and it's something I just stepped off as one of the co-chairs of the steering committee of that. And so again, finding particularly other women mentors and support networks has been very important.
Amanda Lawrence:
And I will agree that I have a lot of informal mentors, mainly because I gravitate towards people who have similar interests that I have. But also, I have this great network of museum people because I work at a museum where I can talk to a lot of different types of people and groups of people about either something professional or something personal. It's a great network. And as I said before, that my field is very woman-dominated. And so I feel like that also helps me talk to people because they're similar to me and have similar thought processes to me.
When it comes to more formalized mentorships, I like to go to professional conferences and I often find people there who can help me professionally. And in a couple of committees and societies that I'm a part of, they actually have a formalized mentorship program, which I always found was a great resource of finding people and being able to talk to different people that can help me with career or personal things that I'm looking at. And I definitely had a lot of advice when it came to career because I didn't know that museum studies was a career path until undergrad. And so trying to figure out how to navigate that field, I had a lot of advisors that helped me figure that out and what schools to go to.
Laura Haynes:
Awesome. Thank you both for sharing. I'm wondering if you have some advice or if you can share some skills about how you find a mentor? Because personally, I think it's really intimidating to go up to a complete stranger like, "Hey, I would love to hear your thoughts on this," and whatnot.
Briana Pobiner:
Yeah, I'm happy to start with that. So I have gotten over that fear of approaching people, mostly because especially when you do it in a setting like a professional conference or ... I'm a member of just the Association for Women in Science, which is a national association. There's a D.C. chapter, I've gone to a couple of the social events. And so I have found people, particularly in those settings, to be really receptive to any questions you might have, just starting spontaneous conversations, and just generally being welcoming. So my advice is to ask because, really, you're approaching another person, another human being.
Laura Haynes:
Awesome. Thank you for sharing.
Amanda Lawrence:
And I'll add to that that I think a lot of mentorship happens by accident sometimes, where not everybody that I see as a mentor, that I approach and said, "Will you be my mentor?" It was more of a, we're having a conversation about something, or I'm asking for their advice on something work-related, and it's just kind of builds that relationship ongoing. So my advice is it happens and you probably already have mentors that you don't really realize or never had that formalized conversation with.
Laura Haynes:
Okay, thank you. Also, I've heard a lot of the organizations you both are talking about. We have those resources to share with the audience too, if anyone's interested. And I see a viewer suggestion about the American Geophysical Union and its partner organizations including Association for Women Geoscientists that actually has one of those formal mentoring programs. So those are some really great recommendations from everyone who's shouting out and from you both, thank you.
Also, we're just going to take a pause now and have some questions from our audience. If anyone has something that they want to ask about career, about mentorship, go ahead, drop that in the Q&A chat. And while we're waiting for those to come in, I'm just going to share a couple of the responses that we received earlier about what our viewers like in science. So Lynn from Virginia shared that what they love about science is discovery, which I totally agree. I think discovery is just quite amazing, and learning something new and finding information out that will help conserve our land. I'm actually planning on going into conservation, so that's exciting. Jamie from North Carolina likes all things STEM education and aviation outreach to diverse young people. I love that. And Amanda loves science because it doesn't lie. Yeah, that's a big one.
Okay, so we have one of our first questions. So Jamie asks, "What has been one of your proudest moments in your career?"
Amanda Lawrence:
Okay, I can go first. Honestly, getting the job at the Smithsonian made me really proud and made my family really proud. It was one of those pie-in-the-sky things that you didn't know if was going to happen, but you're like, "I'm just going to apply and it'd be great if I could work at a really large museum complex." And then it happened. And so I still am in awe every time I go into the building and I'm like, "I made it and this is what I wanted to do for so long and it actually happened."
Laura Haynes:
That's amazing.
Briana Pobiner:
I have basically a very similar answer. I feel the same way. And sometimes I joke, the day that I'm not excited to walk in the building, someone else should get my job, because I feel like I do have a dream job. And I guess one of my proudest moments was something that happened recently. And so as I mentioned, my job not only entailed science research but a lot of science communication and outreach. And I received an award from the American Association of Physical, now Biological, Anthropologists and the Leakey Foundation for science communication. And so that was a really, just wonderful honor and recognition for something that I absolutely love to do.
Laura Haynes:
Amazing answers. I also see someone's asking, what would you like to do in your career within the next 10 years? And that you all are awesome, someone said. Yeah.
Amanda Lawrence:
Oh, thank you. Next 10 years.
Laura Haynes:
It's a hard question, right?
Briana Pobiner:
Actually, I'll start.
Amanda Lawrence:
I know.
Briana Pobiner:
Because I remember being at a dinner party with my husband, and this was probably in the last several years, and someone said, "Okay, so what's your next career step?" And I was like, "No, no, I'm done. This is exactly where I want to be. I'm getting to do research, I'm getting to do outreach." And so just continuing having the intellectual freedom to pursue research questions that I'm interested in, and particularly once things are in the new normal, continuing to really interact with visitors in the museum. I think just kind of keep doing what I'm doing.
Amanda Lawrence:
Yeah, similar. I'm trying to think what I would like to add because obviously I love doing what I do. I think doing more outreach is something that I want to focus on doing. Programs like these is really great to, again, see different types of people and, like I said, representation matters so much. And so I really would like to focus on speaking more to children who are thinking about science but don't know all the different things that you could be doing within science would be something that I would like to definitely focus more time on.
Laura Haynes:
And I have a really fun question from Furman, "Do you often have to travel to do your work?"
Briana Pobiner:
So I'll take that first. The answer is yes, and I really miss it right now. So most of my research questions are answerable by doing field work or studying collections outside of the U.S. So normally, a few times a year, I'm traveling internationally, whether it's to walk around on the landscape behind me in Kenya and look for bones of animals that have recently died or re-study museum collections in different places, looking for that evidence of butchery marks. The other travel that I normally do is to attend professional conferences, which is an important part of that network building and scientific exchange. So I'm lucky in that I've been able during Covid to — I had lots of data and projects on the back burner that I've been able to work on, but I really do miss traveling and I'm looking forward to getting back to it when I can do it safely.
Amanda Lawrence:
Yeah, I will say that mostly if I do travel for work, it's for professional conferences, because I do more of the taking care of the objects once they get here. But I will say that there are other museum collections management staff that do go out in the field and do collect specimens and travel all over and bring back, I just don't go on those expeditions very often. I'm more of the once they're back and getting everything organized spear.
Laura Haynes:
And we have a couple more questions. So Nikki says, "Building communities to empower groups with a common identity is crucially important, but how do we make sure that we build bridges between those islands of community? Otherwise, we run the risk of just creating more silos of misunderstanding." So actually, they had a student write to them that one thing he learned was that, oh, he's a white male, and that they all suck, and that's not what we want. So thoughts on this question?
Briana Pobiner:
That's a great question Nikki. And I think I might know which Nikki this is if she's a science teacher that I work with. And so I think part of one thing that I think about is that I'm a member of many different communities. I'm a member of the community of scientists, I'm a member of a community of parents, I'm a member of my religious community. So I think making sure that we bring our whole selves to the interactions that we have with the public, with our other colleagues, and figuring out where we are uniquely positioned to build those bridges.
I had a really meaningful interaction actually doing a Expert Is In program for The Bearded Lady Project exhibit, before Covid closed the museum, with a mom who brought her two daughters to the museum. And I had some objects out to talk about my research, but I was also there to talk about what it's like to be a woman in science because that's the main focus of the exhibit.
And so she asked a question that led me to quickly conclude that she did not accept evolution. It wasn't a confrontational question, it was just a little bit of a matter of fact. And so at that moment, I realized that actually my interaction with this mom and her daughters really needs to be about who I am as a person. It's not about, "Oh, touch this cool million-year-old fossil," although that did kind of grab her daughters and they had a lot of fun with that, but it was really about, what's it like to travel with your kid, and what's that experience been like? So I think it's really about making sure, when we can, that we make those personal connections because that's how we build those bridges.
Amanda Lawrence:
Yes, I definitely ... I 100 percent agree with what you said, Briana, that because we're not one part of a person, we're all very different. We have different things that make us who we are, and some of it is all those examples that you already listed. And I'm hoping that doing more programs like this, or just in general of having more voices and more diverse groups of people, that we won't need to have a conversation about, what is it like to be a Black woman in science? I just want to be like, "What is it like to be a scientist?"
We're all moving towards that, and that's always the goal, to not have silos. It'll take time, but I think that, as long as everyone's open to accepting different parts of people, that we're moving in a good direction.
Laura Haynes:
Thank you both for your incredible answers and thank you all for submitting such thoughtful questions. We're going to take one more question, which is very relevant to the second half of the program. So perfect, it's from Veronica. She asks, "How do you balance research and science being a woman?" So take it away. Amanda, I'm not sure if you want to go ahead and answer that?
Amanda Lawrence:
Yeah. Again, I try honestly not to think about it. And in a lot of ways, I'm lucky because I have so many women around me all the time that it's not really a "woman in science" type of thing. There's definitely, just being a person, there's a lot of balancing that you have to do between work and life and fun and stuff like that as well as you want to progress in your career, but at the same time you want to have a balance. And I do feel like everyone has that issue, not just specifically women, but it's something I definitely think about a lot.
Briana Pobiner:
Yeah, I would basically agree with everything Amanda said. And one thing I do think about is that probably not just in science, in academia in general and other things, women tend to take on a lot of service roles. It is something that I tend to do naturally, but it's also something that I try to balance, making sure that where I'm putting my efforts to making the science community a more welcoming place for women or anything like that, to make sure that I am not overextending myself, but really dedicating efforts to where I think I can make a difference bringing my own unique skills or experience or anything like that to the table.
Laura Haynes:
Yeah, and I want you to know both of you are making a difference to many people right now just by being here today. And this just segues right into our next question for the program, which is that, Briana, you mentioned at the very beginning that you're a mom. So I'm wondering, how is it that you managed being a scientist while having a family? Because I'm a young woman going into science and I'm sure many of our audience members are too.
Briana Pobiner:
Yeah, great question. And so my first approach when I was speaking about this was to ask, ask, ask everybody who I knew who was a woman scientist in my field who had a family how they did it. The first thing I learned is that everyone does a little bit differently. You'll see the photo on the left here. This is of me very pregnant in the field. So before my son was born, I was really determined I was going to have one more field season before I knew I'd have to take probably at least a year off of doing field work. And so I managed to... My very small field team was very supportive of this, and so I got one more field season in in 2011 between, I guess, June and July into August. My son was born in September.
And then my son is now nine. When he was six, I brought him to the field with me in Kenya. And so that photo in the middle is of him in the exact same place where he was when I was pregnant. And this is him. He came with me to the field. And I have been pretty discerning, I think, most of my career, but especially now thinking about colleagues who I work with, making sure that they would be welcoming of something like that, and they were fantastic and supportive. And Ella, who is answering some of the questions behind the scenes, came with me on that field season, which was wonderful. And for me, it was really meaningful being able to show him the places that I have talked about and I've shown him pictures of.
You could see the picture on the right is of him. We just spent a day, and most of the time it was either in the museum, this is in Kenya, in Nairobi, or at my field site at Ol Pejeta Conservancy, but we were able to visit Smithsonian and National Museums of Kenya field site called Olorgesailie in Southern Kenya, where I had helped to run the excavations for many years before he was born. And so getting to introduce him to my excavator colleagues and the other folks that I worked with in Kenya was just really a lot of fun, and I think left a big impression on him.
The reason that I brought him to the field with me that summer is because I had seven weeks that I was going to be in Kenya, three weeks of working in the museum looking at fossils and four weeks in the field, and that was too long for me to be away from him when he was six, from my perspective. And so again, every mom scientist that I have talked to does their work-life balance and family balance a little bit differently, and maybe that shifts over time, but I have really tried hard to make sure ... I've even in some instances kind of shifted or altered some of my research questions. I'm doing a little bit more collections-based museum research where I can, instead of two months every summer being away, it's maybe I'll spend three weeks in a museum collection and then I'll come back, and then maybe I'll do another two weeks somewhere else.
So I can still do all of that while I'm a parent. And so it takes effort and thought and it's hard, but it's 100 percent worth it. And there are more and more scientists that are becoming moms or moms that are going into science, and so I think also having some community and support systems are fantastic for that.
Laura Haynes:
I just want to say these are some amazing and inspirational photos. Also, as an undergrad, I've heard a lot about this concept of publish or perish, is this reality, and how do moms in science get around that?
Briana Pobiner:
Yeah, I'm happy to talk a little bit about that as well. So for me, it's very much about, I remember reading in an article somewhere about a top woman CEO saying that she ruthlessly prioritizes her time. And I kind of feel the same way. I mean, in some ways, becoming a parent led me necessarily to work to be more efficient for the time that I am focused on working so that I feel more relaxed and able to be with my family during family time.
I'm lucky that I actually really like doing research and writing scientific papers, so that, to me, it doesn't feel like a burden. It feels like I never have enough time to actually do the research that I want and spend all the time writing all the papers. But the other thing that I do is that I have started more and more broader collaborations with colleagues that have strengths that I don't. And so sometimes it can be that if I have three or four papers published in a year, I've played one small part in this paper and a slightly larger part in another one. But really, I think the further along in your career oftentimes, building those collaboratives, it makes it easier to be able to keep up a publication level of whatever you're required to, depending on your job.
Amanda Lawrence:
And I'll just add that this really does go back to this theme that we go back and forth about of work-life balance that is really challenging to do sometimes, especially even in early career, where you feel like you need to say yes to everything and you need to be on every committee and do everything in order to be successful. When really, it's a finding the few things that you are truly passionate about and can really focus your time on doing well and not saying yes to everything, because that's a good way to burn yourself out and becoming not liking what you end up doing, which I think is important for everyone to think about. And I constantly remind myself of like, "Do I have time to say yes to this thing?"
Briana Pobiner:
Yes, one of the things I learned recently is that no is a complete sentence, and I try to exercise that more and more.
Laura Haynes:
I definitely-
Briana Pobiner:
And if you feel like you have to give an excuse, okay, but sometimes you can just say, "No, I'm sorry I can't do that," or something like that. But I have to remind myself about that sometimes.
Amanda Lawrence:
Same.
Laura Haynes:
I definitely relate. I'm right now learning that no is a word I can say to people. I also just wanted to point out, Lynn says in the comments that she also took her son in the field with her when he was young and he's 30 now and also a scientist too. So how cool is that? And also, bringing it back to something Amanda said earlier, that she's in a field that's mostly dominated by women. Now, I study primates, and primatology is a field that is mostly women. So I feel like these fields still aren't perfect though. And I'm wondering what your thoughts are on if you feel that there's still barriers, what are these, and how you challenge those?
Amanda Lawrence:
Absolutely. Yeah, as I've said, my field is dominated by women. But when it comes to who's in charge, who's making the bigger decisions, and who is making the most money, those often are men. And then when I also think about how there's really not that many people of color that are in my field, it's growing, thank goodness, but it's still something that needs to grow more. And I think a lot of that might come down to not realizing that my field exists.
As I've said before, I didn't know until my second year of undergrad that this exists. And so this is why, again, I love these types of programs to get more representation, that's a word I'll keep using over and over again, more representation, so people can see that scientists become and look in all different ways.
Briana Pobiner:
Yeah, I guess the only thing I would add to that, because I completely agree, is that it's the same way in a lot of research science or academia, where there are fewer women that are department chairs or deans or as you go up the hierarchy in general. And I still think there's always talk of the leaky pipeline in science, where we'll have maybe many more women and people of color in undergrad, and then it gets fewer proportionally in grad school, and fewer at postdocs, and so thinking about why people are leaving the field. And to me, actually creating spaces for women only or other kind of affinity groups is a really important part of being able to increase that retention. Because it's not just recruiting people, it's retaining them.
Laura Haynes:
Yeah, and I've noticed that we're getting a little bit better in a lot of fields, which is very exciting. And I'm excited also to be contributing to more inclusivity and being parts of these groups that you're both mentioning. And we have our next question, which is that I know I'm in sort of this transitional period right now. I'm an undergrad. I'm planning on going to grad school. I'm looking into careers. And we have audience members from all ages at different points in their lives, so I think this can really apply to everyone, but one challenge I've been concerned about is about having a negative experience, whether it be my school, my advisor, going out into the field. So I'm wondering if you have advice on how to prevent that or move forward if I end up maybe not liking what I'm doing or having a bad time?
Amanda Lawrence:
Yeah, I can start with that because advice that I can give, especially if you're looking into grad school, there's a period where you can go and you find an advisor, right? And so that person is kind of interviewing you to be like, "Do you fit within my research questions, and do we have enough align?" But you're also interviewing them. And I think we should all work on being more comfortable with asking questions such as, do you have a code of conduct at your institution? What is the protocol for reporting a problem? And I feel like their answers to those questions can be very telling. If it's a, "Oh, I haven't thought about it before," that's telling. If they're open to that question and they want to work with you, that is also telling from the beginning. Which you might not always get that opportunity, but I think it's important to at least consider, and considering it from a work perspective as well.
I tell my interns the same thing of, "You can ask these questions," or, "If you're getting a bad vibe or just we're not meshing personality-wise or for whatever reason, it's okay to walk away." And I don't think anyone should stay in a bad situation because they think that this is the only option or that, "Oh, but I worked so hard to get into this institution so I can't leave." It's like, "No, you absolutely can, and sometimes should, leave."
Briana Pobiner:
Yeah. To follow on from that, I 100 percent agree. The advice I always give is when you're going into some kind of situation, especially an important decision like who you might work with in graduate school, making sure that your personality meshes with the mentor's personality is hugely important. And just because somebody else's does, doesn't mean that that's the right person for you. The other advice I often give is talk to their students, their current students, their recent students, ask them about what the vibe is like in the lab or in their research group. I think that's important.
I've unfortunately had female colleagues who have experienced sexism, bullying, even assault in field and other situations. And some have left the field of science because of it and it's heartbreaking. No one should have to put up with that kind of negative experience. It's not always something you can prevent, but I think asking a lot of the questions that Amanda mentioned can at least give you a sense of whether the person in charge of whatever experiences has thought about this kind of thing is willing to discuss it. And none of these experiences are the fault of people who have dealt with them. So that's an important thing to remember.
Laura Haynes:
Briana, Amanda, thank you both so much for sharing all of your expertise with us, and it really sounds like you're doing some amazing work. I have one more prepared question and then we're going to take more questions from our audience. So audience members, please, if you have anything to ask, put that in the Q&A box. And before we move on to those questions, is there anything else, Briana and Amanda, that you would like to share?
Briana Pobiner:
I guess the only other thing I would like to share is that the reason I'm sure that any of us who are in science, the reason that I do this is because it's really fun. It's kind of maybe a well-kept secret? But I get to ask the research questions I'm interested in, I get to solve mysteries, I get to work with great teams of people.
I guess the other thing I would say is that it's okay to try something and then decide you don't like it. When I was a graduate student and I was a teaching assistant on that summer study abroad program in Kenya, there were always a subset of students who were like, "And I found out I hate field work." And that's okay and that's important. And maybe if those people stayed in biological anthropology, they decided they were going to do collections work or lab work or genetics work. But being willing to try something different and being willing to say, "Nope, that's not for me," it's not a failure, that's an important learning opportunity to hone and figure out what really makes you tick.
Amanda Lawrence:
And I just wanted to add that one of my favorite, favorite parts of my job is that I get to see and work with so many different objects. The things that you see on exhibit at the museum is like 3 percent of what the museum actually holds, and I get to work with the other 97 percent. And I think that's great and it's cool, and every time I give someone a behind-the-scenes tour, it's always great, everyone's always really excited. And again, it's a world I didn't know existed until I took a class that took me to a museum, and I'm so glad I took that class.
Laura Haynes:
And that's awesome. Hopefully I'll get a behind-the-scenes tour eventually. I just want to thank you both, Amanda and Briana, for being here today, having this conversation with me. And we're going to move on to the final Q&A before ending today. I also just wanted to add that a poll will pop up on your screen in a moment and we'll appreciate you voting on that. And whenever you leave the Zoom today, a survey link is going to appear in your browser window. Please take the survey. It helps us improve everything.
Okay, I see that we have a question from Amanda about grad school for a museology grad school. They're about to start a similar program at the University of Florida. That's my school, guys, so let me know if you have any questions about that. They interned at the Smithsonian two years ago and applied to entry level jobs, but they were told they were too young to compare to a lot of the other candidates, and that they're interested in collections management and hoping that they'll gain experience. "Did you feel that graduate school helped you to hone in on your skills and confidence?" Is what they asked.
Amanda Lawrence:
Yes, is the short answer. And one of the things that I loved about my particular program is that it was associated with a museum. And so I took my classes at the museum actually, in one of their study rooms, but that also allowed me to get practical work experience at an actual museum at the same time. And that experience is what allowed me to really take what I learned in the classroom, apply it to practical use through a job, and definitely helped me hone in more specifically what I wanted to do within collections management. So I will also say that museum studies in general is quite competitive and does have a lot of people that are want to get into it. And so a lot of times, any extra internships or any types of hands-on experience you can get will help you hone in those skills and show the experience that you have from learning in these classrooms as well.
Laura Haynes:
Okay. And another question from our audience, what is the hardest part of your job that you love?
Briana Pobiner:
I will say it's not having enough time to do all of the things that I'd like to do. I mean, I know that's a bit of a silly answer. I guess every job has a little bit of bureaucracy. The bureaucracy's never particularly fun, so whether it's just a challenge of time management and balancing all the things I want to do, and then once in a while being like, "Oh, I really have to fill out this form." But I think in the grand scheme of everything I do that those things are so minimal compared to all the things that I like.
Amanda Lawrence:
Yes, I will echo that because you used that magic word, forms. And we are a government agency, so there are forms for days that we have to do for anything that we want to do. But I agree, it's something that we have to do and it allows us to do the thing that we love doing.
Laura Haynes:
Yeah, I definitely have been filling out a lot of forms recently. I guess there's more of that in my future. So you both mentioned travel earlier. Jamie asks, "What are your favorite places to travel for work and for fun?"
Amanda Lawrence:
Again, like I said, I travel with my professional conferences that I go to, but since they're always ... It's for a natural history museum, that's the society, it's for natural history museums. So every time I travel for work, I get to see a new natural history museum, and often get behind-the-scene tours of these. And I will say that my favorite trip so far was when I got to go to Berlin, because it was just a place I always wanted to go but I never thought I'd get to go to. And being able to go for work and go see a international museum was really fun and exciting for me. For fun, I am a sun girl, so I love the Caribbean. Anywhere in the Caribbean.
Briana Pobiner:
So I guess I've spent the most time for research travel in Kenya. And so again, the place in back of me, Ol Pejeta Conservancy, is really one of my happy places. There's nothing like feeling so alive when you're walking through the bush with your colleagues and also with armed guards to make sure that none of the wild, dangerous animals are going to harm you. But just really, I love the travel where I get to really be off the beaten path, where I really get to be immersed in another country, another culture, meet people that I wouldn't get to otherwise. And I guess for personal travel, I am also a sun girl. I do not like the cold. Doesn't matter that I grew up in the Northeast, I could be anywhere tropical. So yeah, pretty much anywhere that is warm and sunny and has a beach, that's a great place for personal travel for me.
Laura Haynes:
Well, both of you are welcome to come down to Florida. We have plenty of beaches and sun down here. Okay, well, as we wrap up the program, I just want to thank you both so much for your time today, and to everyone watching, for joining us. We really appreciated all of your amazing questions. Be sure to check out some of the resources that we've posted on our page. And I know that Twitter's a great resource if you have social media to check out other professionals in the field, what they have to say, and just see what's new. Also, on our page, we have The Bearded Lady Project and relevant links for that. It's an amazing project. Go check it out. It's all about women challenging the face of science. And remember to take our survey. It takes a few minutes, it's really impactful for our next program.
If you enjoyed this webinar, please join us again on July 29th for the second part of the series with research geologist and curator of vertebrate paleontology, Kay Behrensmeyer, who was actually one of the behind-the-scenes scientists with us, and Deep Time Peter Buck Fellow Camilla Souto. So thank you all so much.
Amanda Lawrence:
Thank you.
Briana Pobiner:
Thank you.
